Assignment: In Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong, read
the chapters assigned below. Write a response, following the
Reader Response Guidelines (above). React to and comment upon
at least 2 of your classmates responses.
Chapter
5: Compare and contrast France’s emphasis on rhetorical skill with your
own education and culture.
Chapter 5 is all about eloquence and rhetoric. How the French speak and write is very important in their French culture. French children are drilled rhetoric before they even go to school. Rhetoric is then taught rigorously in school too. In America we have a way of speaking and then there is a way of writing. The American way of writing is more formal than the way of speaking. In France they have a right way to say everything. In earlier chapters we the book talked about how the French conversation is quite competitive. In regular conversation there is fight to see who is more intelligent. If you use incorrect grammar while speaking you come off as less intelligent. Also saying “I don’t know” is also a sign of unintelligence. The French refuse to use the phrase “I don’t know.” Writing in France is seen as a very noble occupation to have. Writers are given praise and many politicians have written book while in office and it has made them more popular. In America if you told people you were a writer they would ask you what other job do have so you can pay your bills. I think that the way that the French view writing is something that America should adopt. Having skill in writing is something that is a very important skill to have. The average American student doesn’t like writing. If American’s viewed writing like they view it in France I believe our writing skills as a country would improve. The French also have “raised expectations for verbal communication.” If we had raise expectations the American population would sound more intelligent. This chapter was very interesting and eye opening.
RépondreSupprimerI can not agree with you more when you say, "if you use incorrect grammar while speaking you come off as less intelligent..."
SupprimerGoing off of what you said, I can agree almost completely. Because I know first hand what its like to listen to people speak differently and with and without bad grammar.
If more people took the time to just stop, and think about what they want to say and what they're about to say, they might not come off as 'less intelligent' Now I dont want to be that jerk who is always nitpicking people who dont take the time to think about what they're going to say. I'm just saying, if we took an extra second to think about what we are going to say, we might not make as many mistakes.
Im going to guess that i probably made some grammar errors in this response... XD
I was really surprised to read that the French do not use the phrase "I don't know". In America, that is a typical response or used as a filler until we can come up with a somewhat respectable answer. I wish that Americans felt the same way about this phrase because it can sometimes come off as obnoxious.
SupprimerIt is surely not enough for someone to say in class that they don't know something. Even in the film Le Petit Nicolas, the teacher expected those little kids to answer every question and even elaborate on their responses. I think this kind of learning is very strict, but probably necessary for educational growth. To me, in class when I hear someone say "I don't know" it's more like a sign of having not done the reading as opposed to a sign of unintelligence.
SupprimerI really liked the second half of your paragraph, especially where you said people question those who want to become writers. Unless you are a child prodigy, no one will take you seriously when you say you want to be a writer. I think that this is pretty unhealthy, literature is quickly losing its place in America, people nowadays tend to not care about it whatsoever. If we encouraged children to be writers when they're young, perhaps it would motivate them to take their education in writing more seriously. I definitely think education program in united states needs to do a better job focusing on writing, discussion, philosophy, and reasoning. These aspects are necessary for development.
SupprimerI found the French's' refusal to admit not knowing something to be slightly ridiculous. It provides an opportunity to learn from the person you're speaking to. It also causes the quality of the information being transmitted to suffer. It seems very prideful. It is also counterproductive considering their emphasis on critical thinking skills and philosophical analysis.
SupprimerWhen people talk to one another they normally dont take the time to actually think about what they want to say. Same can be said about talking to groups of people, the person talking will say something and then the listeners will respond with something along the same lines as whats been said. But do we as Americans take the time to actually think about what we're going to say, actually say it, and then take a small amount of time to then rethink what we said? I dont think so. Because if we did, some people wouldnt sound as lost or as counfused when they spoke.
RépondreSupprimerBeing from a hispanc descent, people generally tend to think that i would speak with an accent of some sort. WHich I dont and when I talk, I find it funny that ever so often, someone is taken a back on how I talk. A perfect example, The other day I was at work (I work on a boat in chicago giving tours about the city) and I had a family from Guatemala (Im guatemalan) and when I spoke I saw the surprised look on the faces. Because they thought that I would speak with an accent and with different grammer.
Not sure if this is even part of what we're supposed to even say, but I just wanted to throw in my own personal experience. If we just took a few seconds to think about what we wanted to say, maybe things would be better.
Americans certainly do not have the same competitiveness in conversation that the French have, but I believe that we still listen to what the other is saying. It may come off that we are not listening and giving intelligent response because are goal is not to gain an edge over the person(s) we are speaking with. Our goal in conversation is simply to communicate a message to the receiver. This is what we are taught from day one.
SupprimerIsn't it funny that from day to day, our conversations are solely based on ourselves. I just recently noticed this. I mean think about it. When you are first meeting someone, both parties are more interested in talking about themselves no matter how many questions you ask the other person. When was the last time I had an intelligent conversation about something that matters with someone I barely know? I have no clue. I blame social media, because you can look up anything at the drop of a hat instead of really learning it for yourself. the French read a lot too, so that is probably why they have better rhetoric.
SupprimerThe French have mastered the art of eloquence and rhetoric, and this chapter gives many examples to support this statement. The authors began with an anecdote about their French friend and how he used this rhetorical style of conversation on them. The authors began to look into this conversation style that the French people do so well, and they discovered that they are taught to speak like this beginning in school. They are taught a Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis, which teaches them to provide a logical and well-constructed argument in the art of conversation. We learned earlier in the book that the French like to gain the upper hand in an argument, and they will shout over one another in order to make sure that their opinion is heard. The thing is that in order to gain the upper hand, they must use the art of eloquent and precise speech. In fact, the French people are so concerned with language that they will make movies that have no actual point, but the display of language will leave the audience speechless. This really shocked me because the movies in the United States are certainly not like that. If a big summer blockbuster premiered, and it followed the guidelines of one of these French movies, then the audience would be outraged to have spent so much money on “nothing”. Americans do not care about language like the French. If we pay to see a movie, we want to see explosions and a clear beginning and end. There are some movies that leave you with a question about what truly happened, but there will be a clear storyline that will lead you to make a logical conclusion or argument. As Americans, we would be clueless in a movie like that because we are not taught to value language to that degree. We are taught the basics of speech: what to say and how to say it, but we are not taught to love language the way that the French do. Americans tend to be very plain in their language and far from eloquent unless we are trying to sound “fancy”. I admire the French for their love of language.
RépondreSupprimerI totally agree with what you said about French movies vs. American movies. French place much greater value on spoken (and written) word. We don't put nearly as much effort towards making our speech effective AND eloquent. Americans seem to care more about the speed of delivery.
SupprimerI also admire the French for their love of language. I think that in our education system we should be taught to love language like they do. I also thought it was interesting how you compared French movies to American movies. You made some good points about how Americans wouldn't like a movie just because they used perfect english in the movie. That sounds ridiculous to Americans but not to the French.
SupprimerThis chapter was entitled The Art of Eloquence, but it could also be entitled The Art of French Rhetoric in Politics. Apparently, in school French people are taught rhetorical strategies for conversation, especially when it comes to difficult questions about politics. No one really wants to answer awkward questions or questions that are too deep, so instead what they do is just repeat the question in different terms and it sounds like a new idea when it is really not. If you ask me it is a genius thing to do when put in that situation, but it’s off putting to be on the other end of it. The author caught the person in the act of using this rhetorical tactic and he admitted to the practice of this art. The French are highly respected for knowing facts and they pride themselves on being eloquent in conversation. This is something completely foreign to American culture. We say what we want and do not care if it makes sense or leads to more conversation. Our conversations compared to the French are pretty lethargic. The author made an excellent point however that not all French people are brilliant and suave people and that was a good statement to make because often it feels that way. The French are just very passionate about words and politics. They can speak of a certain topic for hours and even write about it. Many French people become writers, politicians, and businesspeople, where rhetoric is highly used. I also find it awesome that they view opinions as fact when it comes to journalism. They do not de-value interviews and reports, but consider them hard facts. The Washington Post could learn a lot from the French about how to do journalism the right way. After all, if you don’t have opinions, do you really have a good article?
RépondreSupprimerI also thought it was interesting that the French dance around answering questions, even if they know the answer. I can definitely see this being a huge barrier for foreigners like us Americans if we go over there. It was also interesting how they value personal opinions in news reporting, where here we make subtle word hints to our points of view, in which reporters here can be accused of being "biased." I personally enjoy reading actual facts, and could probably get annoyed at all the personal opinions taken as facts!
SupprimerI think it's a total bummer that (like you said) eloquence in conversation is completely foreign to America. It seems as though the art of conversation is dead in America. No one wants to have philosophical debates or share their opinions really. They just want to know the facts and move on. I for one don't like that approach, I think America would be a much more sophisticated country if people started to converse more. And not just hollow surface talk, but actual conversations where you say what you feel and put your energy and emotion into your words.
SupprimerI also liked your last sentence; good journalism should combine fact AND opinion, you shouldn't make things up to support your opinion (although lots of american journalists do) but you also shouldn't be completely impartial on the topic.
I liked how you mentioned that this chapter could also be called something else. it's funny how politics and rhetoric or so connected. If you are a write-in France it's like you're seen as a higher power. I think politicians write books because they want to be more popular. In America when politicians write books they sometimes make politicians less popular. (cough cough Hillary Clinton cough)
SupprimerIt is interesting that the French are taught to speak in an eloquent rhetoric early on in their lives from school. It is also interesting that them saying “I don’t know” is regarded as either arrogant or a result from unintelligence. Here in the United States, we are taught that saying “I don’t know” is an honest response to something that we do not know much about. I can see how we look arrogant or unintelligent by saying “I don’t know,” although it does not seem to be a fair assessment. It is also interesting that in France, people who are poor and who ask for money do so in an eloquent way, and may have a better time than the poor here, since the poor are not thought of much here. When speaking to one another, one does not think that it’s rude to interrupt another person, as that is seen as thoughtful and engaging, whereas here, we would view that as rude and inconsiderate. Esprit is the French term for the highest degree of conversational brilliance, and is used to poke fun at or mock other people, which seems to be their form of comedy. Here, we tend to engage in self-deprecating comedy or conversation, although this would seem boring to the French, as they are not interested in personal details, but rather, how the person speaks otherwise. Being able to speak brilliantly and wittily makes all the difference in social situations, regardless of the facts presented. For example, in the news, the French focus on how the news is reported, rather than what is reported. The French are certainly much more different than us in the United States, more so than I expected!
RépondreSupprimerI agree that the French may take the "I don't know" response a bit too seriously. By saying we don't know, American's are opening a discussion to be educated on a subject. I also find it interesting how the French are okay with being interrupted, however, I agree with the French, mainly because I tend to cut-off people mid-sentence.
SupprimerAs we can see in chapter 5, the art of language and communication is a vital part of french culture and identity. For some reason I get the sense that in France, people care more about having a thoughtful, well-spoken conversation whereas Americans tend to care more getting answers out of a conversation. Honestly I think I prefer the French perspective; one of my favorite things to do is to have a gold old fashioned philosophical discussion. I don't really care about finding outcomes for every problem, I just like the actual process of conversing. I also think it's really cool how much the French value being witty and quick-minded in conversation. I think it takes a great deal of intelligence to be sharp in conversation and this skill can sometimes be overlooked. I'm glad that the French have no serious issues with interrupting someone while they're speaking because I've been finding myself doing that a lot recently.
RépondreSupprimerThere were a lot of little tidbits in this chapter that really helped me develop a greater appreciation for the art of eloquence in France. The part were Barlow and Nadeau explain the rituals beggars go through to ask for money was really fascinating. I also liked their inclusion of French movies and comedy that focused solely on humorous dialogue, it speaks to the French's attitude towards language really nicely.
I thought this chapter was one of the most interesting thus far. I've been enjoying this book and am looking forward to learning more about French culture. From what I've read so far, I am lamenting over the fact that I'm not in France now :(
I found it interesting that the French are taught rhetorical strategy in school. I think it’s wonderful! I wonder if Americans were taught this thesis-antithesis-synthesis model, perhaps we could have avoided some of the negative consequences brought about by poor decisions made by those in power. Critical thinking skills are very important. The French clearly have a higher appreciation for the spoken and written word than Americans. It appears as though Americans are more concerned with the speed of communication rather than the quality. I absolutely love that the French are taught philosophy in grade school. A quote that really stood out to me was, “Even the beggars in the Paris subway do their best to be eloquent.” This just goes to show how deeply this concept in woven into French society. I also find it interesting that the French refuse to say, “I do not know.” Although I agree that there are some situations in which hearing this can be frustrating (sheer laziness, ignorance, etc.), I also believe that admitting when one does not know something provides a good opportunity to learn from the person you’re speaking to. It also shows humility. When someone is too proud or stubborn to admit when they don’t know something, the quality of the information the listener is receiving suffers. It seems counterproductive to their emphasis on the cultivation of critical thinking skills and the philosophical examination of problems.
RépondreSupprimerI agree! I think that Americans should be taught a better respect for eloquence, this way we would be able to appreciate the ideals of others. I also love how you stated that Americans are more concerned with the speed rather than the quality of communication.
SupprimerAs we have read in previous chapters, France has its own unique ideals, usually differing from the characteristics of every other country; oral and written expression is no exception. Chapter Five is entitled, “The Art of Eloquence” because it adequately describes the French emphasis on grammar and rhetoric. One example cultural example of this is that the French refuse to admit that they do not know something, instead they exclaim, “Ça n’existe pas!” or in English, “It does not exist!” In fact, to state that you do not know something is a sign of ignorance and or arrogance. In contrast, Americans often use the phrase, “I don’t know.” Usually, we use this phrase as a way to avoid answering a difficult or awkward question. However, it is rare that French citizens do not have a response since they have been taught to value eloquence from an early age. Yet, in American culture, I believe, eloquence is not stressed enough in our education curriculum. Even in this day and age, we have high-school students with reading skills below their grade-level. The French would never allow such offense to their culture. Everything position in French society abides by the rule of eloquence, for example, even French beggers follow a sort of eloquent transcript when begging. I thought the book summed up America’s deficiency in eloquence by the statement, “North Americans couldn’t expect that kind of eloquence from a politician.”
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